I well understand the desire to not run a multiMB environment. I am with you on that one because on the main player HTPC between TheaterTek, Powerstrip and FFDshow, I can't afford to burn cycles.
Unfortunately M$ is not going to give us any option in the future. Non .Net applications will be effectly be penalized in the next steps beyond the current XP environment.
In many ways the structure of HouseBot is a good fit for .Net . Main app as an service. Winform/Web based GUI clilents. All that is missing is a scoped down HB app that is a remote slave(replicated device).
Housebot/Meedio Integration
You're right. HB doesn't use COM, EXCEPT for the VB Device SDK. I was exposed to COM very early on and never took much of a liking to it. Since HB was designed just for my own use, it took the easy road and just used a C interface. However, in growing HB into a more diverse development community, I think COM (or maybe even .net) would make sense. I understand your reluctance with .net... I have it too.ericvic wrote:I don't think the core HB uses COM, Scott can correct me if I'm wrong.
I hope that HB doesn't go the .net route. I don't want to have to install a multi-megabyte runtime to get the same functionality we have now.
I would like to see HB mature but personally I don't care if it integrates with Meedio Essentials or not. I'm interested in the HA aspects of HB.
Scott
Not to start a religious debate but you could do a rewrite in Java and have cross platform capability.
I know Java is not the best thing since sliced bread but I'm rather fond of it. I happen to use it all day at my real job. As for write once run everywhere, that is a crock. But with minor tweaks it can be done pretty easily.
Eric
I know Java is not the best thing since sliced bread but I'm rather fond of it. I happen to use it all day at my real job. As for write once run everywhere, that is a crock. But with minor tweaks it can be done pretty easily.
Eric
I know Java is not the best thing since sliced bread but I'm rather fond of it. I happen to use it all day at my real job. As for write once run everywhere, that is a crock. But with minor tweaks it can be done pretty easily.
I was about to say, cross platform my A$$. I hate .net just as much as I hate java, but it seems that moving to .net is the way things are shifting. Besides, isn't project Mono suposed to be porting .net to linux. I can never keep up with languages, as I'm still typing away at C/C++. Thats what I know, so thats what I use.
| Got NetFlix? | Buy me a beer! |
Rewriting HouseBot would be a huge task, but not out of the question. Before we went that route, I'd look into perhaps implementing a java layer for plugins, since that would serve the same purpose.
I'm not big on rewrites. Generally if it's not broke, you spend all your development time re-inventing your wheel instead of extending the features and functionality which is what users really want.
Either way, this is something I would/could never do myself. Now that Meedio is involved in HB's future, we will have the resources to do whatever is needed to make HB a great product (not that it's not great already
)
I'm not big on rewrites. Generally if it's not broke, you spend all your development time re-inventing your wheel instead of extending the features and functionality which is what users really want.
Either way, this is something I would/could never do myself. Now that Meedio is involved in HB's future, we will have the resources to do whatever is needed to make HB a great product (not that it's not great already
)Scott
And it still works as good as all the new stuffKairos wrote:...as I'm still typing away at C/C++. Thats what I know, so thats what I use.
Microsoft has passed the point of solving problems with applications. Now they have to create abstractions to create new problems to sell more products. But we could go on and on about this...Scott
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Circe640
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I agree with Scott
M$ is just piecemealing in functionality enough to force repetitive upgrades. We are almost at the stage now where OS/2 was in about 1996. PROGRESS???
Before HB ever goes to .Net, I personally would like to see the existing product segmented a bit. Separate the Theme Design, Configuration and the Main HB Service into separate executables. This would help shrink the amount of code loaded when you are running nothing but a device replication. In the medium term, it might help with Meedio integration as both the Configuration function and the Theme Designer could move to a common design between Essentials and HouseBot. For all the complaints, I have heard over the past few years over setting up HouseBot, both the explorer like configuration functions and the visual theme designer are heads and shoulders above Essentials from a useabliilty perspective.
I really do have to question Meedio's choice of an off the wall database like SQLlite that will make database access for developers a pain. Both the VBWrapper and the ODBC driver are maybe? alpha release at best and not supported by the main developers as far as I can tell. In spite of its faults, Access would have facilitated the eventual move to SQL Server.
Before HB ever goes to .Net, I personally would like to see the existing product segmented a bit. Separate the Theme Design, Configuration and the Main HB Service into separate executables. This would help shrink the amount of code loaded when you are running nothing but a device replication. In the medium term, it might help with Meedio integration as both the Configuration function and the Theme Designer could move to a common design between Essentials and HouseBot. For all the complaints, I have heard over the past few years over setting up HouseBot, both the explorer like configuration functions and the visual theme designer are heads and shoulders above Essentials from a useabliilty perspective.
I really do have to question Meedio's choice of an off the wall database like SQLlite that will make database access for developers a pain. Both the VBWrapper and the ODBC driver are maybe? alpha release at best and not supported by the main developers as far as I can tell. In spite of its faults, Access would have facilitated the eventual move to SQL Server.
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kbosscawen
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Circe640 Said:
I don't know what the details of the deal were, but if Meedio purchased HouseBot based only on Alan's experience (no offense intended, Alan!! ), and without having a good (not complete, but good) understanding of HB's flexibility and capabilities, and without having a plan on when the acquisition might be able to produce some revenue for the company, then it would seem that the deal was made "hoping" that the two products would be good for each other. I think that's probably not the case - I'm pretty sure a lot of HB evaluation (even proof-of-concepting) went into developing the deal.
Those asking are simply trying to get a more specific glimpse into that plan without the marketing hype.
While Alan has used and done some developement for HouseBot, I doubt if the rest of the Meedio group have had much experience/exposure. It is going to take time for them to truly evaluate and understand the flexiblity HB represents.
I don't know what the details of the deal were, but if Meedio purchased HouseBot based only on Alan's experience (no offense intended, Alan!!
), and without having a good (not complete, but good) understanding of HB's flexibility and capabilities, and without having a plan on when the acquisition might be able to produce some revenue for the company, then it would seem that the deal was made "hoping" that the two products would be good for each other. I think that's probably not the case - I'm pretty sure a lot of HB evaluation (even proof-of-concepting) went into developing the deal.Those asking are simply trying to get a more specific glimpse into that plan without the marketing hype.
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Circe640
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Imagination
I am sure Scott walked the rest of the group through a pretty thorough explanation of HouseBot. However, I also have to believe that Scott has had more than one surprise in how one of us users, used HouseBot to do something he had never considered. That is the big divergence between Essentials and HouseBot. Both are types of tools. Meedio essentials has a very narrow focus in terms of functionality. HouseBot is the Swiss Army Knife.
In many respects it is more imagination limited than functionality limited, especially if you can do a little bit of plugin development.
Look at the sample theme screens for JukeBot
(http://www.jim-mcdougall.com/id172.htm)
This does work well for a structured music environment. And it works in the HouseBot framework. It wasn't that hard to build the plugin.
In many respects it is more imagination limited than functionality limited, especially if you can do a little bit of plugin development.
Look at the sample theme screens for JukeBot
(http://www.jim-mcdougall.com/id172.htm)
This does work well for a structured music environment. And it works in the HouseBot framework. It wasn't that hard to build the plugin.
Circe640 wrote: That is the big divergence between Essentials and HouseBot. Both are types of tools. Meedio essentials has a very narrow focus in terms of functionality. HouseBot is the Swiss Army Knife.
From the point of view of meedio users, esentials is the swis army knife and housebot is the specific HA tool. Both statements are uterly wrong. Following the development of esentials, I know that it is not just a media organizer. It can be anything. Esentials is actually just a bunch a plugins written using the meedio framework, prepackaged with a wizard and installer.
Really, esentials or housebot, if you have the time then your imagination is the limit. I've been working with both for some time now and am glad to see whats happening.
p.s. Watch out for Alan, he likes to talk in riddels, and unless its an anouncement its hard to get a straight answer.
| Got NetFlix? | Buy me a beer! |
ericvic wrote: ...I would like to see HB mature but personally I don't care if it integrates with Meedio Essentials or not. I'm interested in the HA aspects of HB.
Yes, I'm only interested in the HA aspects of HouseBot as well but I DO care if it integrates becuase I would hate to see it grow into some bloated home entertainment conglomeration in which HA is not much more than a sideline. Like Scott says, "If it ain't broke ..."
... and as far as "Watch out for Alan, he likes to talk in riddels, and unless its an anouncement its hard to get a straight answer" ... I'm glad I'm not the only one who had come to that conclusion. It's worse than trying to get a politician to give a yes or no answer and that's why I asked for a straight, no-spin response ... which we still haven't got!!
Andy
Come on guys, I'm a little offended that you think I'm not giving straight answers. I've been as forthcoming with you as possible. I kind of get the impression that you're expecting Meedio to be such a big bad corporation that you "read between the lines" to try and justify that idea. 
Let's take a step back if we can. I'll start over and try to be clearer this time. First of all we have no intentions of getting rid of HouseBot as a standalone application. I can't say it will absolutely never ever happen because I can't tell the future and it wouldn't be honest for me to try. But we've had no discussions about doing so and there are no current plans to consider it. The only thing we have talked about doing is bundling it with other Meedio software in addition to selling it standalone.
About the plugins and the software itself - we will be releasing Meedio HouseBot in the coming week. It will be priced very competitively when compared to similar software and as mentioned it will be free to anyone who was registered on the HouseBot forums before July 27. We will also be contacting the authors of the original plugins to invite them to provide their plugins to the community through our website.
We have some very definite ideas of what we'd like to do with HouseBot. In fact I just dug up one of our first emails on the subject and thought I'd share some of things we were thinking of:
Lastly, while we recognized the synergies between the two products and developed our own ideas of things we'd like to do with them we really want to hear from you what your ideas are. What do you hope will happen to HouseBot? How would you like to see it integrate with our other software? What don't you want to have happen?
We really do try to be responsive to your needs. Just tell us what they are and we'll do our best to bring it to you.
Thanks,
Let's take a step back if we can. I'll start over and try to be clearer this time. First of all we have no intentions of getting rid of HouseBot as a standalone application. I can't say it will absolutely never ever happen because I can't tell the future and it wouldn't be honest for me to try. But we've had no discussions about doing so and there are no current plans to consider it. The only thing we have talked about doing is bundling it with other Meedio software in addition to selling it standalone.
About the plugins and the software itself - we will be releasing Meedio HouseBot in the coming week. It will be priced very competitively when compared to similar software and as mentioned it will be free to anyone who was registered on the HouseBot forums before July 27. We will also be contacting the authors of the original plugins to invite them to provide their plugins to the community through our website.
We have some very definite ideas of what we'd like to do with HouseBot. In fact I just dug up one of our first emails on the subject and thought I'd share some of things we were thinking of:
- Have the HouseBot server read the Meedio database and display its items on the PPC client. For example this would allow users to browse their DVD library on their handheld.
- Have Meedio send messages to the HouseBot server to display info (i.e. now playing info) on the PPC client.
- Design a virtual remote control on the PPC client to control Meedio’s navigation, start/stop/pause, etc.
- Have the HouseBot server send messages to Meedio and/or update the Meedio database so that HouseBot objects can be displayed and controlled with Meedio. This would be similar to the interface I did between myHTPC and Homeseer except ideally it would be real-time and interactive. For example, there could be a Meedio screen to display the current status of all of the lights in the house with the ability to let the user turn on/off/bright/dim those lights from the Meedio interface.
- Configure macros/tasks that interface to external home theater equipment through the HouseBot server so that for example when you select Play in Meedio it would also control your lights, audio, and video equipment through X10, IR, and/or RS/232.
Lastly, while we recognized the synergies between the two products and developed our own ideas of things we'd like to do with them we really want to hear from you what your ideas are. What do you hope will happen to HouseBot? How would you like to see it integrate with our other software? What don't you want to have happen?
We really do try to be responsive to your needs. Just tell us what they are and we'll do our best to bring it to you.
Thanks,
Thanks for the response Alan and I'm sorry you feel offended. That wasn't the intention. I think this is just the result of the frustration felt by HouseBot users in not knowing what is happening and the overwhelming feeling that they have lost something they valued. Australians are known for speaking their minds and I'm no exception. I'll tell you how I feel in no uncertain terms ... I won't couch my comments in spin and sales-speak. You'll get the "no bulldust" version from me and I expect the same in return.
I really think that this whole sorry story is a matter of perception. How Meedio is perceived by HouseBot users and how Meedio perceives HouseBot.
In the first place I think it is only natural for HouseBot users to view Meedio as the bad guys. When you use terms like "we have acquired" the immediate mental picture is one of some faceless corporation squashing the little guy. That may not be the reality but that is the perception. Perhaps we've all had too much exposure to the Microsofts and Enrons of this World but there is an underlying distrust that can't be denied.
To further add to this distrust, many existing HouseBot users have the feeling that having been "acquired" by Meedio, HouseBot as they know it will cease to exist. If you do a search on Google for Home Automation you'll find HouseBot. That's Home Automation ... not "Control your Media - Improve your life" or "Home Theatre" but "Home Automation". I feel that this goes to the core of the bad feeling toward Meedio. To a great many users, myself included, HouseBot is a program for Home Automation ... in fact, one of the very best programs for Home Automation. Perhaps it will give you a different perspective to know that neither I or any of my friends involved in home automation had ever heard of Meedio or myHTPC until last week!
What has upset many existing users is the perception that Meedio has taken away something for which there is no viable alternative. Sure there are other home automation programs. Some do an almost reasonable job but are grossly overpriced, some are virtually useless for any serious use ... and some are both outrageously overpriced and completely useless!. HouseBot was the exception and the feeling is that Meedio is going to remove what is viewed as both the best HA program and the last realistic alternative and turn it into something unrecognizable.
What has also deeply upset people is the almost indecent haste in removing HouseBot from the market. I find it incredible to think that only now are you talking about contacting plugin authors. Why the heck you didn't have all this stuff in place before snatching HouseBot is beyond me. You should have had Meedio HouseBot complete and tested with all the plugins available for immediate download ... not think about it weeks after pulling the freeware version from under our feet.
Your list of the "very definite ideas of what we'd like to do with HouseBot" is for the most part completely irrelevant to many existing users. They neither have nor want Meedio and if such functions are built into the core of HouseBot then it means only unnecessary bloat and complexity and detracts from what they see as the core function of the program.
This brings me to the perception that Meedio has of HouseBot. You have stated elsewhere on these forums that one of the first things you did on joining Meedio was to contact Scott. YOU wanted HouseBot because it fitted YOUR perception of what it was and what it could do for YOU. Going back to the way things are perceived, the more cynical users may see this as an aggressive seduction by Meedio ... done without any regard for existing HouseBot users. I wonder if you even considered the effect that your pursuit and eventual acquisition of HouseBot would have on the existing user base.
Others have a different view of HouseBot and in taking it away from the home automation community the fear is that the focus will move away from home automation.
As for your questions:
"What do you hope will happen to HouseBot?" ... I would hope that you will basically leave it alone. It isn't broken so please don't try to fix it. By all means improve the stability and fix minor bugs but leave it essentially unchanged.
"How would you like to see it integrate with our other software?" ... Other than by means of an optional plugin, I wouldn't!. I don't want your other software, I want HouseBot. I wish I had never heard of Meedio and I dearly wish that Meedio had never heard of HouseBot.
"What don't you want to have happen?" ... I don't want you to massage an excellent home automation program into something that YOU think we should have but that many existing HouseBot users neither want or need.
I realize that existing HouseBot users are a tiny minority now that Meedio owns the program. Our voice is probably insignificant and we're no longer talking to an individual but a corporation whose motives and plans are completely different to what we've been used to. The sheer weight of numbers means that the future direction of HouseBot will be driven by Meedio users, not HouseBot users.
Finally Alan, I note that you have a musical background ... having "graduated from the Oberlin Conservatory of Music with degrees in Composition and TIMARA (Technology In Music And Related Arts)". I hope your next work isn’t going to be a Requiem for HouseBot.
I really think that this whole sorry story is a matter of perception. How Meedio is perceived by HouseBot users and how Meedio perceives HouseBot.
In the first place I think it is only natural for HouseBot users to view Meedio as the bad guys. When you use terms like "we have acquired" the immediate mental picture is one of some faceless corporation squashing the little guy. That may not be the reality but that is the perception. Perhaps we've all had too much exposure to the Microsofts and Enrons of this World but there is an underlying distrust that can't be denied.
To further add to this distrust, many existing HouseBot users have the feeling that having been "acquired" by Meedio, HouseBot as they know it will cease to exist. If you do a search on Google for Home Automation you'll find HouseBot. That's Home Automation ... not "Control your Media - Improve your life" or "Home Theatre" but "Home Automation". I feel that this goes to the core of the bad feeling toward Meedio. To a great many users, myself included, HouseBot is a program for Home Automation ... in fact, one of the very best programs for Home Automation. Perhaps it will give you a different perspective to know that neither I or any of my friends involved in home automation had ever heard of Meedio or myHTPC until last week!
What has upset many existing users is the perception that Meedio has taken away something for which there is no viable alternative. Sure there are other home automation programs. Some do an almost reasonable job but are grossly overpriced, some are virtually useless for any serious use ... and some are both outrageously overpriced and completely useless!. HouseBot was the exception and the feeling is that Meedio is going to remove what is viewed as both the best HA program and the last realistic alternative and turn it into something unrecognizable.
What has also deeply upset people is the almost indecent haste in removing HouseBot from the market. I find it incredible to think that only now are you talking about contacting plugin authors. Why the heck you didn't have all this stuff in place before snatching HouseBot is beyond me. You should have had Meedio HouseBot complete and tested with all the plugins available for immediate download ... not think about it weeks after pulling the freeware version from under our feet.
Your list of the "very definite ideas of what we'd like to do with HouseBot" is for the most part completely irrelevant to many existing users. They neither have nor want Meedio and if such functions are built into the core of HouseBot then it means only unnecessary bloat and complexity and detracts from what they see as the core function of the program.
This brings me to the perception that Meedio has of HouseBot. You have stated elsewhere on these forums that one of the first things you did on joining Meedio was to contact Scott. YOU wanted HouseBot because it fitted YOUR perception of what it was and what it could do for YOU. Going back to the way things are perceived, the more cynical users may see this as an aggressive seduction by Meedio ... done without any regard for existing HouseBot users. I wonder if you even considered the effect that your pursuit and eventual acquisition of HouseBot would have on the existing user base.
Others have a different view of HouseBot and in taking it away from the home automation community the fear is that the focus will move away from home automation.
As for your questions:
"What do you hope will happen to HouseBot?" ... I would hope that you will basically leave it alone. It isn't broken so please don't try to fix it. By all means improve the stability and fix minor bugs but leave it essentially unchanged.
"How would you like to see it integrate with our other software?" ... Other than by means of an optional plugin, I wouldn't!. I don't want your other software, I want HouseBot. I wish I had never heard of Meedio and I dearly wish that Meedio had never heard of HouseBot.
"What don't you want to have happen?" ... I don't want you to massage an excellent home automation program into something that YOU think we should have but that many existing HouseBot users neither want or need.
I realize that existing HouseBot users are a tiny minority now that Meedio owns the program. Our voice is probably insignificant and we're no longer talking to an individual but a corporation whose motives and plans are completely different to what we've been used to. The sheer weight of numbers means that the future direction of HouseBot will be driven by Meedio users, not HouseBot users.
Finally Alan, I note that you have a musical background ... having "graduated from the Oberlin Conservatory of Music with degrees in Composition and TIMARA (Technology In Music And Related Arts)". I hope your next work isn’t going to be a Requiem for HouseBot.
Andy
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ryanjones2
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Andy,
I can totally understand your frustration, but as someone who has been a big member of the myHTPC/Meedio forums for over a year now, I wanted to say a few words to address your concerns. Meedio started out as one person creating a peice of software and only when he (Pablo) was faced with the situation of not having a job anymore did he decide to pursue his passion as a full time business. Pablo has always been someone who has listened to people on these boards and cared about what we wanted in his software. That being said Meedio is not a corporation, it is a group of 5 people who were all members of this forum and who all have come to love the software that Pablo created. I can't gaurantee or even say what will happen with housebot but I imagine, the core of it will not change very much at all and you will be able to use it just like you are now. Please give these guy's a chance here. They will always listen to you and try their best to incorporate your needs.
Ryan
I can totally understand your frustration, but as someone who has been a big member of the myHTPC/Meedio forums for over a year now, I wanted to say a few words to address your concerns. Meedio started out as one person creating a peice of software and only when he (Pablo) was faced with the situation of not having a job anymore did he decide to pursue his passion as a full time business. Pablo has always been someone who has listened to people on these boards and cared about what we wanted in his software. That being said Meedio is not a corporation, it is a group of 5 people who were all members of this forum and who all have come to love the software that Pablo created. I can't gaurantee or even say what will happen with housebot but I imagine, the core of it will not change very much at all and you will be able to use it just like you are now. Please give these guy's a chance here. They will always listen to you and try their best to incorporate your needs.
Ryan