Hey Scott, this might be unanswerable, but I'll throw it out there anyway:
I'm at a crossroads with my lighting hardware. I have a mix of Insteon and X10 (more X10) and am unsure of how to proceed, or if I even want to right now. I had started making a migration to Insteon a while back, and then put things on hold for a while for other reasons. Now I'm jumping back in and I notice that SmartHome has raised the prices by a good bit on the Insteon product line, discontinued their "affordable" Icon series, and seem to still be having problems with overall quality/customer satisfaction (my opinion). At any rate, that has me torn on what to do moving forward.
My question: Have you chosen a specific path for HB that you're willing to disclose? I know there has been z-wave support for a while, but I've never used it. Would you say that z-wave is better, worse, or equally supported in HB in comparison to Insteon? How about future UPB support? It seems to be the most reliable (again, my opinion) but also very expensive.
I do know that I want to stay with HouseBot - actually probably a combination of HouseBot and Linux. I've looked at other packages and believe that HB is the best fit for me right now. The Swremote is really your trump card - nobody else is doing that in an integrated (and unlimited connection) fashion for less than 10 times the price.
Knowing that I want to stay with Housebot, and that lighting is such an expensive endeavor - I want to make sure I choose something that will be supported for a while - even if the "right" solution is more expensive - so any insight you could provide would be most helpful.
Thanks again for a great product,
Terry
Lighting direction HB is taking
Terry,
Good questions.
The next release will include support for the Insteon PLM, but only you can answer whether Insteon works well for you or not.
I will tell you that my home has primarily Z-Wave devices. This is due to the fact that the protocol allows me to address devices very quickly creating scenes. Like I can fire off 4 commands to 4 different lights and they all respond at the same instant (or no perceivable delay). But again, that's just one of my requirements that Z-Wave is best at filling.
The release after next will address support for some of the newer Z-Wave controllers/Hardware Interfaces.
Good questions.
I try and keep the "path" as generic and unbiased as possible, and think of HouseBot as a framework (well... a framework with enough plugins to be useful). I really don't voice any personal dislike for protocols because things that don't work well for me may work perfectly fine for others.Have you chosen a specific path for HB that you're willing to disclose
The next release will include support for the Insteon PLM, but only you can answer whether Insteon works well for you or not.
I will tell you that my home has primarily Z-Wave devices. This is due to the fact that the protocol allows me to address devices very quickly creating scenes. Like I can fire off 4 commands to 4 different lights and they all respond at the same instant (or no perceivable delay). But again, that's just one of my requirements that Z-Wave is best at filling.
The release after next will address support for some of the newer Z-Wave controllers/Hardware Interfaces.
Scott
Cool, thanks for the reply. I didn't know that z-wave responded so quickly to commands. Do you get acks back from the commands, or do you poll for status updates? Also on the z-wave front; have you seen this motion sensor:
Sorry for the HomeSeer link, I'm not sure who actually makes it. (Please delete the link if it violates something...)
http://store.homeseer.com/store/Z-Wave- ... 38C57.aspx
It seems pretty cool (even though expensive) in that it not only reports motion events, but also ambient light level, room temperature, and sensor battery level.
I have no clue how all of this info is sent within the z-wave protocol, but homeseer reports the info as different parameters of the device. I'm guessing that for something like this to work in HB; there would need to be a specific hardware device created for it, correct? Or would something like this show up as a generic-type device with all the info coming into one property that would need to be parsed?
I guess I'm trying to get an idea of the flexibility of Insteon and z-wave with regard to HB.
Thanks again,
Terry
Sorry for the HomeSeer link, I'm not sure who actually makes it. (Please delete the link if it violates something...)
http://store.homeseer.com/store/Z-Wave- ... 38C57.aspx
It seems pretty cool (even though expensive) in that it not only reports motion events, but also ambient light level, room temperature, and sensor battery level.
I have no clue how all of this info is sent within the z-wave protocol, but homeseer reports the info as different parameters of the device. I'm guessing that for something like this to work in HB; there would need to be a specific hardware device created for it, correct? Or would something like this show up as a generic-type device with all the info coming into one property that would need to be parsed?
I guess I'm trying to get an idea of the flexibility of Insteon and z-wave with regard to HB.
Thanks again,
Terry
-
Steve Horn
- HouseBot Guru
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:10 pm
- Location: Pelham AL
Terry, thanks for the update on Smarthome and Insteon. I had concluded recently to phase out the remainder of my X10 stuff as time and $ permit, replacing it with more Insteon. The Insteon I have - 7 switch/dimmer devices - has been rock solid. And aside from the cost, I've been quite pleased. If they've phased out their Icon line, of which I have two devices, maybe I'll hold on to the X10 stuff awhile longer and see if the Insteon prices drop (fat chance). BTW, I've removed from service the X10 bridge (Leviton HCA02). If anyone running X10 needs one, I'll make them a deal on it.
Steve
Overall, I like the Insteon concept. The communication between my devices has been rock solid as well. I have lost a KeyPadLink that suddenly stopped responding to local commands and had to be replaced. I also have two Dimmers that I believe are on their way out as far as local presses go.
The things that scare me are:
Potential Hardware incompatibilities due to differing firmware revisions: I've got 7 devices and almost all have different FW revisions. I see that SmartHome has released two different revisions for the KPL in just a few weeks time span. One rev. had several enhancements, the later I don't know - possibly bug fixes. But the enhancements in the one rev mean that if I got one of those switches then I'd have three existing ones at the house on an older revision and without those enhancements. SH has no process in place to upgrade existing switches to the new rev.
The discontinuation of the Icon product line and increased prices: Insteon was an awesome idea when the V2s were $35 and the Icons were $25. That made it easy to buy icons for the locations that didn't need the extra capabilities of the V2 line. Now the Icons are gone (when existing inventory is depleted) and the V2s are $50 each.
Keypad changes: Other than the firmware mentioned above, the Keypad is $70 now and no longer comes with clear DIY buttons. It comes with 6/8 etched buttons that read; Scene 1, Scene2, etc. You can buy custom etched buttons for $8 each, or buy a KPL with custom buttons for $110. They recently did reintroduce the clear buttons again, as a separate item at $5.49/pack.
Single supplier: For whatever reason, SH is the only game in town making these switches. I believe they are a relatively small shop and my concern is that if they go belly up with insteon then everyone is just screwed. Z-Wave and UPB each have several companies developing/producing switches and other products. I wouldn't be as worried if the switches were $10 each, but at 5-7x that price it gives me more than a little heartburn.
PC to Insteon Communications: The SDM is a stable(ish) beta product at best at this point. It seems like it's been a year give-or-take since the last version (308) was pushed. You can't even go to SH and get it, you have to dig around with your Google Shovel to find a copy and that just seems odd. SH has introduced the PLM which sounds great on the surface as it allows communication with the Insteon devices without the SDM middleman. Reading the post on the other HA site have me a little concerned over a few things though. I've read that some firmware (here we go again) differences are causing headaches for people trying to write/test drivers. There have been reports that the signal-level isn't as strong in the PLM as it is in the PLC which means that your devices may not communicate as well. I've also read that the PLM dosen't store as many links as does the PLC and that people are running out of memory for links. My house is small enough that I don't think that's a problem for me, but come on.. Running out of memory? How 1990 is that.
The RF link/Signal Lick mess: Why are all of a sudden my rflinks no good and the signal link is the way to go? If that's the case, why do I have to BUY to replacements. I know the changed those so they could introduce the remote and presumably other RF devices, but why didn't they use their existing technology, or why didn't the do the research/planning up front to see that the RF link approach was going to be incompatible with future endeavors.
All-in-all, it seems to me that the Insteon Unit at SH is being run by people passionate about technology, but with little business/project management knowledge. All that bing said, I DO really like Insteon, and hope that it succeeds. I just don't want to dump thousands into it and it not. If I replaced all of my switches with Insteon at todays prices, it would cost about $3500. I know that both z-wave and UPB will be more than that, but I also don't have that icky eye-twitching feeling about those technologies as I do with Insteon.
I still don't know what I will do, I may just continue to hold out and see what the next year brings. That's pretty much what I'm doing with the whole Blue Ray / HDDVD thing anyway, might as well wait on this too. That reminds me, know of anyone that wants to buy an almost-new Sony BetaMx VCR?
Of course, all of this is my personal opinion formulated from what I've read on pretty much every HA board out there. What's it worth? Well, it and $7.99 plus shipping will buy you an etched button from SmartHome... :)
Terry
The things that scare me are:
Potential Hardware incompatibilities due to differing firmware revisions: I've got 7 devices and almost all have different FW revisions. I see that SmartHome has released two different revisions for the KPL in just a few weeks time span. One rev. had several enhancements, the later I don't know - possibly bug fixes. But the enhancements in the one rev mean that if I got one of those switches then I'd have three existing ones at the house on an older revision and without those enhancements. SH has no process in place to upgrade existing switches to the new rev.
The discontinuation of the Icon product line and increased prices: Insteon was an awesome idea when the V2s were $35 and the Icons were $25. That made it easy to buy icons for the locations that didn't need the extra capabilities of the V2 line. Now the Icons are gone (when existing inventory is depleted) and the V2s are $50 each.
Keypad changes: Other than the firmware mentioned above, the Keypad is $70 now and no longer comes with clear DIY buttons. It comes with 6/8 etched buttons that read; Scene 1, Scene2, etc. You can buy custom etched buttons for $8 each, or buy a KPL with custom buttons for $110. They recently did reintroduce the clear buttons again, as a separate item at $5.49/pack.
Single supplier: For whatever reason, SH is the only game in town making these switches. I believe they are a relatively small shop and my concern is that if they go belly up with insteon then everyone is just screwed. Z-Wave and UPB each have several companies developing/producing switches and other products. I wouldn't be as worried if the switches were $10 each, but at 5-7x that price it gives me more than a little heartburn.
PC to Insteon Communications: The SDM is a stable(ish) beta product at best at this point. It seems like it's been a year give-or-take since the last version (308) was pushed. You can't even go to SH and get it, you have to dig around with your Google Shovel to find a copy and that just seems odd. SH has introduced the PLM which sounds great on the surface as it allows communication with the Insteon devices without the SDM middleman. Reading the post on the other HA site have me a little concerned over a few things though. I've read that some firmware (here we go again) differences are causing headaches for people trying to write/test drivers. There have been reports that the signal-level isn't as strong in the PLM as it is in the PLC which means that your devices may not communicate as well. I've also read that the PLM dosen't store as many links as does the PLC and that people are running out of memory for links. My house is small enough that I don't think that's a problem for me, but come on.. Running out of memory? How 1990 is that.
The RF link/Signal Lick mess: Why are all of a sudden my rflinks no good and the signal link is the way to go? If that's the case, why do I have to BUY to replacements. I know the changed those so they could introduce the remote and presumably other RF devices, but why didn't they use their existing technology, or why didn't the do the research/planning up front to see that the RF link approach was going to be incompatible with future endeavors.
All-in-all, it seems to me that the Insteon Unit at SH is being run by people passionate about technology, but with little business/project management knowledge. All that bing said, I DO really like Insteon, and hope that it succeeds. I just don't want to dump thousands into it and it not. If I replaced all of my switches with Insteon at todays prices, it would cost about $3500. I know that both z-wave and UPB will be more than that, but I also don't have that icky eye-twitching feeling about those technologies as I do with Insteon.
I still don't know what I will do, I may just continue to hold out and see what the next year brings. That's pretty much what I'm doing with the whole Blue Ray / HDDVD thing anyway, might as well wait on this too. That reminds me, know of anyone that wants to buy an almost-new Sony BetaMx VCR?
Of course, all of this is my personal opinion formulated from what I've read on pretty much every HA board out there. What's it worth? Well, it and $7.99 plus shipping will buy you an etched button from SmartHome... :)
Terry
-
Steve Horn
- HouseBot Guru
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:10 pm
- Location: Pelham AL
Fortunately, I don't have near that amount or complexity invested... yet. So I suppose I could change direction and go with Zwave without too much regret. When I read up on Insteon prior to making that leap I was impressed with the documentation - white papers, etc. But, like you said, it may be that the SH Insteon "labs" bunch are technically competent but lack marketing savvy. Or maybe they are savvy and we just don't realize we may have been had. I think I'll take your stance and sit on the sidelines awhile and see what unfolds (unravels?). Doing that too with HD DVD and Blu Ray. It would be interesting if you forwarded your concerns to SH to see what if any reply you get.
Steve
Right now HB really only supports simple binary switches and dimming. I've not tested any devices that have more than one control address/class. I know z-wave has support for such functionality, but I've never developed anything for it or tested against it. If someone would like to send me some development equipment, I'd be more than happy to give it a look.roussell wrote:I'm guessing that for something like this to work in HB; there would need to be a specific hardware device created for it, correct? Or would something like this show up as a generic-type device with all the info coming into one property that would need to be parsed?
Scott
Cool, will that include bi-directional thermostat control?ScottBot wrote:...
The release after next will address support for some of the newer Z-Wave controllers/Hardware Interfaces.
I really want HB to be able to control not only temp, but fan settings on the the HVAC.
BTW- for the rest, I've switched away from X10 and converted to Z-wave and it's been great. The speed of response and repeatability on z-wave is amazing.
_______
Jonathan
Jonathan
-
Steve Horn
- HouseBot Guru
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:10 pm
- Location: Pelham AL
For those of you that have moved to Zwave, what brand are you using? I was looking in Worthington's catalog yesterday, anticipating a move toward Zwave and away from Insteon (see above). There are all sorts of brand options. But the prices, at least of the basic switches and dimmers, are about the same as Smarthome's Insteon's. So, aside from the advantage of not having to rely on one supplier (SH), is there a big benefit to Zwave over Insteon?
Steve
There have been several spirited debates on this very topic on cocoontech.com. I think it basically gets down to the old Ford-Chevy or Windows-Linux debate.
I like that z-wave is RF and I don't have to plug in filters/booster/bridges on all my noisy devices to keep the power lines clean(er) and the signal strong. But I wonder if anyone has had signal problems with interference from other RF devices in the house (Wi-Fi, Cordless phones, RF remotes, Microwave Oven, etc...)
I have been looking at the Leviton Vizia line of z-wave devices. They're definitely more expensive, but I've read some good reports about them. I'm still sitting on the fence though, and suspect I will for at least a few more months before I decide to either stick it out with Insteon or move to z-wave.
Terry
I like that z-wave is RF and I don't have to plug in filters/booster/bridges on all my noisy devices to keep the power lines clean(er) and the signal strong. But I wonder if anyone has had signal problems with interference from other RF devices in the house (Wi-Fi, Cordless phones, RF remotes, Microwave Oven, etc...)
I have been looking at the Leviton Vizia line of z-wave devices. They're definitely more expensive, but I've read some good reports about them. I'm still sitting on the fence though, and suspect I will for at least a few more months before I decide to either stick it out with Insteon or move to z-wave.
Terry
Not sure yet. I definitely want to get the new (new to HouseBot anyway) association stuff working so you can get notifications without polling for devices that support it.JonFo wrote:Cool, will that include bi-directional thermostat control?
I would also like to include support for thermostats and other equipment that requires more than just on/off control, but I haven't started researching what it will take. If I actually had a Z-Wave thermostat to develop against it would help. I was thinking of getting one, because I would like to turn on the fan when watching a movie (in the summer the theater gets really warm toward the end of the movie with the doors shut). I'm thinking it may be a cheaper alternative to having the HVAC guys install a zoned system just for that.
Which Z-Wave thermostat do you have (or are you looking at?)
Scott
Scott:
Precisely what Z-wave components are on your wish list for development. I can pick up some of the Vizia stuff and send it to you (I could do cost-sharing with you to spur development...or perhaps others here would like to chip in to get the stuff to you....there is always PayPal to create the community pot).
Also, for T-stats, I would consider a non-Z-wave/X-10/Insteon product. As soon as I get around to it I plan on adding two of the proliphix residential models:
http://www.proliphix.com/NT-Basic.aspx
Each has the capability to have up to two remote temperature sensors and use the composite data of all the sensors to get a better idea of the true zone temperature. Plus, data for each sensor can be accessed individually. I just think hard-wired control of these "mission-critical" devices is better.
Osler
Precisely what Z-wave components are on your wish list for development. I can pick up some of the Vizia stuff and send it to you (I could do cost-sharing with you to spur development...or perhaps others here would like to chip in to get the stuff to you....there is always PayPal to create the community pot).
Also, for T-stats, I would consider a non-Z-wave/X-10/Insteon product. As soon as I get around to it I plan on adding two of the proliphix residential models:
http://www.proliphix.com/NT-Basic.aspx
Each has the capability to have up to two remote temperature sensors and use the composite data of all the sensors to get a better idea of the true zone temperature. Plus, data for each sensor can be accessed individually. I just think hard-wired control of these "mission-critical" devices is better.
Osler
If it works for one Z-Wave thermostat, it should work for all. So something like this is what I'll probably order.Osler wrote:Precisely what Z-wave components are on your wish list for development. I can pick up some of the Vizia stuff and send it to you (I could do cost-sharing with you to spur development...or perhaps others here would like to chip in to get the stuff to you....there is always PayPal to create the community pot).
If you've got a Z-Wave device that isn't supported now and you would like to see it supported in the release, you can certainly send it to me. There's no guarantee that I'll actually implement anything for it, or have a date when I can send it back. But I can pretty much guarantee that if I don't have the device to develop against, it won't get implemented
That's always been the challenge for me being a small automation player. Companies are not sending me boxes of equipment to support, and it gets costly very fast buying one of everything.Yea, but I'm just addressing Z-Wave support next.Also, for T-stats, I would consider a non-Z-wave/X-10/Insteon product. As soon as I get around to it I plan on adding two of the proliphix residential models:
Scott